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Is Vajrayana Buddhism in the West Just a Gigantic Ego Trip?

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I realize there are extensive and sophisticated teachings about "non-ego" within the Vajrayana. Maybe some of you know the practices. But as I unpack all of this, I see now that many of the practices, if not outright designed to generate cult-like devotion to a narcissistic leader... seem to be completely indistiguishable from ones that would.

The practices of Vajrayana include:

- visualizing your human teacher as perfect

- physically bowing down to this visualization (if not the actual teacher) tens of thousands of times

- viewing everything the teacher does as a compassionate action for your own good

- never entertaining a negative thought about the teacher, and if you do, doing practices to "purify" your mind of it

- meditation practices that eliminate critical thinking

All of these are real and specific practices. I make a distinction between these, and the culture of many of these groups, which carry many unsaid codes and mores designed to reward enthusiastic obedience and punish free thinking, questioning, or doubt. We have heard much more of the latter as these communities have unraveled. They are very important to understand. I'm going after the practices now.

As I stated, I'm very aware of the sophisticated "view" about why these practices are done. One would not be able to convince westerners to do such things unless there was some spiritual justification for it. I've heard many versions of these justifications over the years, and they sound something like the following:

"You visualize your teacher as perfect because we are stuck in a dualistic frame of mind and we are relational creatures by nature. Having an external, real world manifestation of the living Buddha is our only way to exit that dualistic framework, and besides, you dissolve the perfect teacher into yourself to complete the practice."

Or:

"You're not actually worshiping your human teacher. What you think is your human teacher is just a projection and these practices dismantle that."

Or:

"You are bowing down to the enlightened nature of your teacher. You could do the same thing with a rock, since the whole world is enlightened, but since you have a teacher you might as well just use that."

Or:

"Bowing down to your teacher allows devotion to grow within you and that very devotion will allow you to receive the teachings more fully."

Stepping back from these justifications for a moment, what do you think would be the logical conclusion of a community that engaged in these practices? The cultural norms of medieval feudalistic Tibet are a completely different environment. There, the social organs of religion, governance, military, and education are blended into one. Monasteries are often the main centers of education, local administrative functions, and even fortresses. This all played into the local balance of power between regions. In such a context, devotion to a local lama served many more functions than simply the transmission of the teachings, it essentially preserved the hierarchy and stability of the whole culture.

None of that translates to the West. When these guru-worshiping practices are stripped of their cultural context, a severe distortion can take place. I'm not claiming the hierarchical structure in Tibet was ideal, but it likely had many more cultural safeguards in place. But, then again, we've also heard how notoriously politically corrupt Tibet had become.

In any case, in the West, I think we can proclaim the Vajrayana a failed experiment. It has attracted or fostered extreme narcissism in many, many teachers, and I believe the specific practices above contribute greatly to that. They are a very effective set of tools for generating total compliance and creating a steady source of what many of us now know of as "narcissistic supply". Thankfully, many students are seeing through it all.

Please let me know what you think of these ideas. If you'd like to share your experience, whether it agrees with what I've written or not, please feel free to do so.




bernareggi


Yes and there is the psychological effect the mechanics of these practices deliver, namely intoxication masking as realization. When we do practices involving imaginative visualizations that are then dissolved (generation/completion) over and over again, we are manufacturing an ecstatic experience akin to using drugs. Anyone here who’s done intensive Vajrayana practice and psychedelic drugs (not at the same time!) will attest to how strongly each can alter one’s mental faculties. And those familiar will also generally concur that in each case these experiences “wear off” after a period of time. The only way to “get back” to the altered state is more of the same- drugs or intensive tantric practice- more drugs, more empowerments- same thing.

The official explanation of this experience is “perceiving the inseparability of emptiness and luminosity” (notice how these phrases are applied as assumed and established truths). This emptiness/luminosity dogma (dogmatic because it is presented as final and incontrovertible) loops back to Buddhist logic that conceptualizes the nature of reality, and therefore squares with (also dogmatic) notions of what “enlightenment” is. Because this “enlightenment” is held up as the most treasured thing we could ever attain (that usually takes 1,000 lifetimes but YOU get a shortcut!), we believe it must be “powerful” and “transformative”- as in really really good.

But what if this “post-meditation experience” was just that, an experience that we are told to call “pure perception” or “realization”, when in reality is just a “buzz”, a state of mind that is only an escape, a “trip”? If it were more than just a feeling, why are there no enlightened people in the sangha, why are the Mukpos lecherous and alcoholic, why is Reggie Ray an asshole who habitually tears people down? Why all the face cream?

It’s not enlightenment at all, it’s a distortion in our ability to see ourselves and the world. Sitting visualizing oneself as a deity and chanting for days and days at a time sure does wonders at blurring the ability to perceive emptiness in opposition to form, samsara in opposition to nirvana, myself in opposition you, the teacher in opposition to the lineage, the lineage in opposition to what is decent, corruption in opposition to ethical behavior, a King in opposition to a groper. When you’re high everything generally seems peachy. When you’re high people can take advantage of you, can put themselves above you, can make you think you are dependent on them. “Oh the lineage! Oh the guru! What great secrets and powerful techniques they impart! It’s so powerful it must be kept secret!”

The only secret is that feeling loopy and dissociated is not profound or even that effective at making us more helpful or kind.

So instead of student/teacher, you basically have addict/dealer.

1 yr. ago The addiction thing rings true to me, and squares with a couple of experiences I've had in Shambhala:

There was a sense of chasing nyam (experiences that occur within meditation, like lightness, intense clarity, panoramic awareness, etc.) in Shambhala. I had been taught early on in my studies that nyam were nothing special--they were expected and normal for anyone practicing meditation, not to be sought out, and, most importantly, they weren't the point. The point was how you conducted your life. When I encountered this lust for nyam, which was sometimes encouraged by teachers talking about getting "glimpses" of the awakened state, I tossed it off as an anomaly--like this small group of people don't get the point, not as indicative as the whole. When I tried to talk about nyam, though, nobody understood what I was saying.

Vajrayana students, especially SSA students, in Shambhala responded very much like addicts whose supply lines have been cutoff to their drug of choice when the Sunshine Report came out. They were angry, desperate, and furious that their "path" had been interrupted. Pro tip: your life is your path, and not the programs or retreats you attend.


TruthSpeakerNow

1 yr. ago


I can't begin to express how grateful I am that you have detailed out all of this, and I pretty much agree with all of it. This is a very insightful take on what these "practices" actually do.

I can attest to this feeling of the "buzz", and I had many conversations jokingly with former sangha members to the same effect. I was a notoriously devoted practitioner during my time, and would tend to gravitate towards the more extreme and intense of the Vajrayana practices, almost intentionally seeking this buzz, as that was a sign it was "working" and I was on that fast track to enlightenment you mentioned. Some of the more intense physical practices (adapted versions of the Six Yogas) I became particularly fond of... well, maybe fond isn't the right word, but very "into". They would reliably produce very intense emotional/perceptual changes in me, sometimes so intense that I could not function at work. I remember having to take breaks during my carpentry job to step aside and process extremely intense emotional experiences (uncontrollable crying). When I told my teacher (Reggie Ray) of such things, no counsel was given to ease off, in fact I was encouraged. I thought at the time I was really "doing" it. And I was. I was sincerely making an effort in what I thought was my spiritual development.

The main thing I was doing was dissolving my normal perceptions of reality (which, as you hinted, we were taught were base, mundane), and availing myself of the programming of my teacher. This led to many wasted years of my life, as that programming was ultimately anti-life, and undermined my well-being and development. The two worked in tandem to do this: the practices, and the teaching. Do the practices, dissolve your reality, and become susceptible to anti-life programming of a narcissistic megalomaniac. In the cases I am most familiar with (Reggie Ray, Shambhala/Mukpos, and Sogyal Rinpoche) this dynamic allows for years of abuse, and a circle of "yes-men" around the teacher that enable that abuse. The pattern is unmistakable.

Towards the end I think my better angels helped me to separate, and I became less enthusiastic and more resistant to doing the practices. Of course, there is a teaching on this too, which is why it's so hard to escape. It states that any resistance you may have is simply your own "neurosis" resisting the pure, unadulterated dose of enlightenment. It's often taught that your resistance is a sign you're really close to a breakthrough or something like that. As you indicated, the worldview presented in these teachings always loops back onto itself. It is designed to make it almost impossible to question, once you have been initiated/indoctrinated. The process of leaving was extremely painful and difficult, and there were months and even years where I would go through bouts of suicidal thoughts. This stuff is extremely dark and perniciously evil, much more than beginners realize of course when they first get into it.


1 yr. ago

Yes, this writer Stephen Taylor publishes with Eckhart Tolle and teaches at Leeds in the UK and talks about these false "spiritual experiences" altered states that really never helped us, related Ken Wilbur's pre/trans fallacy. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201904/the-guru-syndrome

My partner said, sure you have received many empowerments but did they really help anyone, you friends don't seem to be well... at all, but they sure think they are special.


User

Querulantissimus


1 yr. ago Actually, intensive vajrayana group practice is for more advanced practitioners and a qualified teacher should have vetted the participants to make sure they are stable and grounded enough so they don't just trip out but can anchor that practice. I mean, you do not try to run a marathon unless you have extensive previous running training.

Plus there is a school of thought that you should only do that type of intensive visualisation if you already have an experience of emptiness nature because only then you can use these meditation exercises properly. You generate out of empiness, if you can not get into that state, you can not do generation phase properly. So my best guess is, that for people who can not generate out of emptiness nature, there is a danger it goes the wrong way if they put too much effort into the visualisation, recitation etc.

I mean, it's said that you can get into all kind of bad rebirths if you do wrathful deity self generation and you believe that the thing you visualise has a solid self etc.


FearlessLingonberry

1 yr. ago

For me, I am pretty solidly resistant to Vajrayana. I was exposed to it at Naropa and I'm aware of the justifications that are offered for it, but to me there are aspects that seem frankly non-Buddhist. I don't begrudge anyone their spiritual path if it works for them, but personally I think there are a ton of enormous red flags, some of which you mentioned. My own spirituality is weighted heavily towards simplicity. I'm no stranger to esoteric systems of belief, but I'm at a place where I'm not really interested in them. I'm pretty content to study the Heart Sutra and sit. Sometimes I light a candle 😂

In more direct response, yes, I think it's an ego trip, although not necessarily limited to the West. My understanding is that abuse was rampant in Tibet, too.


TruthSpeakerNow OP

1 yr. ago In more direct response, yes, I think it's an ego trip, although not necessarily limited to the West. My understanding is that abuse was rampant in Tibet, too.

This is what I lean towards as well. And I'm glad to hear you were resistant to it. I was not. It can be difficult to understand how one may have ended up in a "cult". However, many good people can be vulnerable to such things. Tibetan Buddhism when I was young seemed like the absolute coolest thing I could ever find. More than cool. Profound. It's incredible to me how clearly I see though it all now, and more so everyday it seems. I am grateful for whatever allowed me to do so. Some of my friends, good, wholesome, intelligent people, are still caught up in it.


ipyngo · 1 yr. ago I thought this was a really insightful post, and I agree with a lot of your assessment of Vajrayana Buddhism in the West. Something I will say about the veneration of the teacher is that I think it is actually more "comfortable" and "common" in the West than it might seem. People want to believe they are being directly instructed by someone infallible -- they WANT someone to bow to.

Really good and thought provoking post. Thank you for it.


1 yr. ago

Thank you very much, and you are very welcome. It's gratifying to know my contribution is helpful, and that I can hopefully redeem to a degree what I went through (and participated in) by doing so.

I think you are right about many westerners wanting someone to bow down to. I actually think it is a healthy aspect of human nature, however, I would call it a badly misplaced religious impulse to be exercising that on a human teacher. The decline of religion and religious institutions in the West created a vacuum, and certain of these Tibetan teachers successfully identified a market opportunity to fill. Sadly, I think this has soured many people on spirituality in general, from some conversations I've had with some former sangha members of mine. In the end, I suppose we are all left to our own path of discerning the truth. May we all find it.

1 yr. ago How does this compare to how it was practiced in Tibet / is practiced in the Eastern diaspora?


TruthSpeakerNow OP

1 yr. ago


Well, the only eastern diaspora of this type of Tibetan Vajrayana, originally called "lama-ism" by early anthropologists, is in Bhutan and Nepal, which are similar cultures as Tibet, though Tibet has much more rural territory (hence the more feudalistic society). In terms of the devotional practices, they are very similar to the West. That part was essentially copied and pasted from those cultures into the Western incarnation of Tibetan Buddhism. My belief is that these practices were imported because, without their cultural safeguards (dysfunctional as they may have been even in Tibet), they are an excellent method for generating this "narcissistic supply" that I referenced. When that happens, it's like a drug to these teachers in the West, be they Tibetan (Trungpa, Mipham, Sogyal, etc.) or Western (Reggie Ray, Thomas Rich, Surya Das, etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply

At this point, I can't say for sure that the practices are purely narcissistic supply generators in every cultural context, including Tibet, or if they make for excellent such methods in an already narcissistic and irreligious Western culture. I'm leaning towards the former, but that it's just more pronounced in the West.

1 yr. ago I tried to get my partner into Vajrayana many times over the years with a few different teachers, and he refused and said: "it seems like a narcissistic training camp."


TruthSpeakerNow


1 yr. ago I tried to get my partner into Vajrayana many times over the years with a few different teachers, and he refused and said: "it seems like a narcissistic training camp."

This is absolutely incredible to hear. Like I've said to a few others in these threads, to hear of people who had similar observations early on as what I've come to after nearly 20 years in this stuff but only seeing in the past few... it's just extremely helpful. Relieving is perhaps the word.

And to quote your other reply:

My partner said, sure you have received many empowerments but did they really help anyone, you friends don't seem to be well... at all, but they sure think they are special.

They sound like a very insightful person.

What's been amazing to me though, is just how many good, intelligent, seemingly level-headed people get caught up in these things. Knowing that and reading various material that explains that helps alleviate some of the shame and embarrassment of my involvement. That shame is cited as one of the main reasons people don't speak up or sometimes even leave the groups in the first place. One never wants to admit to one's self that one could be involved in a "cult". Cults are for gullible rubes, right? Well, as a friend (and former Reggie Ray student as well) said, it's just a matter of finding the right cult for you.


edited 1 yr. ago

It's even worse than "an ego trip" now that we are all waking up and put on our "They Live" sunglasses. I'm taking a 'high tantra" class online with people from all nationalities, and I'm trying to hold onto my practice and faith...however, I listen to the people asking questions and realized that a huge % of western vajrayana practitioners seem in fact, full force mentally ill. I look back at my friends now, ones that I thought we were all the noble, "chosen ones" and sadly seems like a pool of broken people, codependents, narcissists and dare I say a few psychopaths in lead positions. How could I have been so stoned on vajrayaya rhetoric and "blessings" to not see? It's like I was force-fed pure perception like a foie gras duck.


TruthSpeakerNow OP · 1 yr. ago Thank you for this gem of an analogy at the end, and great post overall. I think it's pretty much spot on. As I've said in different ways in other posts, what I think is the case is that vajrayana attracts westerners of a particular type of damage. Ones that are desperately trying to escape their own culture, and their own selves. The rest of the damage is completed by the vajrayana itself. Your last two lines are perhaps the most apt and poetic descriptions I've seen yet of what happens to westerners in the vajrayana. I can see clear as day that this is what not only Reggie did with his students, but Trungpa, too.


1 yr. ago

I would like to add some ammunition to your argument that there wasn't anything particularly redemptive about the way the submission-inducing vajra doctrine was used in Tibet. Since I've already written on this topic, you'll excuse me for cutting and pasting from an essay:

[T]he tulku system was constantly manipulated to unite wealth with sanctity, and wealthy feudal lords bribed lamas to recognize their sons as tulkus. A political science analysis would point out that feudal systems have traditionally been very unstable, leading to endless warfare among contending heirs. The Warring States period in China, lasting hundreds of years, and the aptly titled Hundred-Years War in Europe, are but two examples, and more can be drawn from the Indian subcontinent and Asia generally. The biggest problem in feudal systems is that under the system of primogeniture, the oldest son inherits his father's lands and titles, leaving the younger sons landless and untitled. These younger scions are motivated to create trouble in the realm. A classic strategy for overthrowing a feudal dominion is for a neighboring lord to encourage a younger son to flee to his domain, from whence he can accuse his older brother of being a bastard who has "stolen the throne," and mount a campaign to put “the rightful king” on the throne.

These battles to establish the "rightful ruler" were eliminated by the tulku system, that siphoned off excess nobles into the monastery, where they were given ecclesiastical titles. Ennobled by religious decree, they could command service from armies of monks who were often given to the monasteries at an early age because, like the wealthy lords, peasants passed all of their land to the eldest son, making a monastic occupation the only available alternative to starvation. So the monasteries filled up with low-class servants for the high-class geldings, and homosexuality, prostitution, and high living in the sacred precincts were integrated into the holy life.

The tulku system thus counterbalanced the tendency toward destructive competition among the wealthy and powerful, and secured a greater level of social stability by interposing a layer of god-kings whose identities could be chosen for political reasons. Thus, the elder lamas had the opportunity to extract offerings of land, livestock and gold from the feudal lords, and to increase or decrease their power by selecting a son from one family this time, and another family another time. The number of tulkus of course proliferated as the lucrative nature of recognizing god-men became a part of the monastic financial structure, a pattern that continues to this day.


1 yr. ago I don't think so; I think that like most dharma in the West, it's a mixed bag. However it's more similar to how other tantra has been planted in the West than it is to how non-tantra Buddhism has been.

In particular, the results are more extreme (both positive and negative). It seems somewhat similar to the psychedelic community to me. I've seen a lot of really nutty people and also really sane people in both worlds. Hindu tantra groups are the same.

Non-tantra Buddhist groups in general are much more normal. Zen is somewhere in between. :P

Regarding the specific experiment of ngöndro, I personally think that ngöndro remains relevant but a lot of what you said makes sense to me. I think it's going to change a lot over the next few generations (and people are already playing around with it).

1 Querulantissimus


1 yr. ago Vajrayana in the west is by no means a homogenous movement. There are hundreds of legitimate teachers active teaching westerners, local groups may have different group dynamics and habits, and, there is always the individual level. People getting into it do it for so many different reasons, these people have such different backgrounds, capacities and psychological backgrounds

No, it's not a failed experiment. I know a ton of sane, down to earth people who follow that path who genuinenly profit from it.

Intoxication masking as realisation is something every more experiential spiritual path can get you into. Ideally, in Tibetan buddhism ideally you have a teacher who does regular checkups of how students are doing and where they might get stuck. The teachings you find in writing certainly warn students to not mistake meditation experiences for more permanent realisations.

Are there westerners out there who seek out a path like tantric buddhism, because they want spiritual bypassing of their problems they don't like to face? Yep. That exists. It's the teacher's job to make sure it doesn't become a problem.

1 yr. ago I don't think it is just a gigantic ego trip, but I do think that pretty much any temporary person, place, or thing that I identify as being a solid, everlasting, indivisible, and more important "me," is a source of suffering. Its just logic. If I identify something that is impermanent as me, I will be sad, frustrated, and confused when it falls apart.

So, if I'm holding onto being a vajrayana shambhalian in the face of the problems I have with "that guy" as guru, then I am increasing my suffering.


User avatar


TruthSpeakerNow OP

Lol I agree.... you asked the the question I wanted people to ask.

1 yr. ago "The vajrayana is dangerous. Best not to begin it." - CTR and literally every other western vajrayana master.

It isn't for everyone and isn't to be entered into blindly.

Just about every publicly available text on the Vajrayana warns this. And yet people who aren't down for that ride make the choice to commit anyway.

So sad to watch.


TruthSpeakerNow

1 yr. ago · edited 1 yr. ago This is exactly what Reggie Ray said when confronted with his own abuses. He said that those who were accusing him of abuse just couldn't handle the vajrayana - students that had spent years preparing to enter the vajaryana and did so with his full knowledge and blessing, and under his full guidance. I wonder if the women Mipham sexually abused and every member of his inner circle who made excuses for him also weren't ready for the vajrayana. If it is dangerous, maybe what's dangerous about it is that it trains you to give up your critical thinking so that abusive people can take advantage of you, or that you become unmovitated or unable to call out abuses of power, or that it emboldens narcissists by relieving them of obligations to follow "conceptual" morality. It is sad to watch.

1 yr. ago It's sadder to watch teachers who are unkind, arrogant and callous, try to teach us.

Querulantissimus · 1 yr. ago About the perfect teacher. It's said that with full liberation comes omniscience. As long as my teacher has no clue how to repair a car and needs a translator, that "perfect" teacher is not infalliable. Therefor he/she does not know everything and is technically able to make mistakes, misunderstand something etc. One should always keep that in mind.

rism_View · 1 yr. ago You let us know when you find that omniscient teacher, mmkay?

Autonomousdrone

1 yr. ago

edited 1 yr. ago Technical fallibility can be repaired with manuals https://www.maa.org/press/maa-reviews/superior-beings-if-they-exist-how-would-we-know a perfect teacher would have a perfect student and perfect perception in a perfect world,but it’s not a perfect world so where is the perfect classroom where this perfection is accomplished https://blogs.psychcentral.com/therapist-within/2012/01/is-perfection-an-imperfect-idea-therapy-nature/ https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/52008/how-can-an-omniscient-being-prove-it-s-omniscient-and-not-just-delusional


Nyamby Pamby Vajra posturist trül-khorian lockstep

the accusation of false modesty with the charge that the negations used of deity by negative theologians almost invariably presuppose invidious contrasts: the finite is inferior to the infinite, the changeable to the unchangeable, the passible to the impassible, the temporal to the non-temporal, and so forth. http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/index.php?p=699&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

This is what I know. Don't settle for 40, 50, or even 80 percent. A relationship-it shouldn't be too small or too tight or even a little scratchy. It shouldn't take up space in your closet out of guilty conscience or convenience or a moment of desire. Do you hear me? It shold be perfect for you. It should be lasting. Wait. wait for 100 percent.”


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