anemos said:

It would be nice if you could open a thread on Hinduism. There so many interesting things one can find. I'm not suggesting something academic, just sharing impressions and how it resonates to all of us. I have personally benefit from their thoughts Maybe because in some respects resembles the Greek Mythology with all those gods with human traits ( good or bad).

Was thinking of those terrifying images , depicting those deities, like the one you posted earlier and while in the beginning repels you they attract you too. Its like when we were children closing our eyes with our hands before scary scenes on tv yet we were seeing through the gaps between our finger. I have no explanation why that feeling but it was so clear that I had to laugh

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I love that image, a child peeking through their fingers at the 'skeery' monsters, yet being drawn to look.

Comparative mythologies are tricky and delicate things to deal with, as there are local or folk myths and archetypal myths, and it's easy to confuse and mislead one with the other, though they each have examples which share a common idea, such as we've been tossing around in the h30 thread. It can work sometimes but with others, they do not.

For example, one may compare Zeus to Vishnu, or even to Jehovah (Yahveh, Yehowah, YHWH), but on a local or folk myth level represent very different characters and attributes. Try connecting any one of them to a Yijing hexagram is asking for an unholy war to break out, especially among those who have a monotheist approach to their favorite mythology or methodology. No local mythology follower is ammune to it. I've watched the most vehement arguments erupt even among Buddhists, to say nothing of those arguments among various Christian doctrines. They make atheists look like saints! haha

The wrathful deities, which you speak of, which folk myths have the most in common, are those in Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism, while the Judaeo/Christian folk myths always depict them simply as representing evil, and therefore classify eastern religions which depict such forms as also being evil. So it's a slippery slope to present in a specialized (or folk myth) forum, such as this one.

But, in Hinduism, Tibetan Buddhism, and in some American Indian myths, the wrathful or dangerous deity figures evoke what some might call a holy fear, similar to the way LiSe talks about hex 51: shocks which awaken. Moreover, they represent not beings external to us but parts of our own psyche and critical components to a complete or holistic psychology. Here I'll dare to compare them to hex 29.

Also, only few have a knack and interest in exploring the practicality of such myths, and I perceive there are more who find them irrelevant and even annoying, lol. Those who have attached historical significance rather than symbolic significance to these figures and stories tend to be especially agitated that someone dares to mess with their personal sacred cow.

But for those who have genuine interest and aptitude for myth, including comparative mythology, there's a wealth of information now available to us. You, Maria, already know the respect I have for the life work of Joseph Campbell, which I owe to LiSe for turning me on to him several years ago. Though I've always been interested in world religions and mythologies, he and Carl Jung opened the doors for me personally to explore them further, to understand myself and others better.

Perhaps the most important thing to understand is that a wrathful deity is but the other face of a benevolent and peaceful deity, and that the message of each is: Do not be afraid. Nothing is happening.

I am intrigued. "The message of both is: do not be afraid. Nothing is happening." Nourishment for my heart. Thank you

I might emphasize, that it is one thing to view these figures in two dimensional art forms, and quite another to see them in 'living color' and dimension in the Bardo world, experienced as completely alive and breathtaking realism, accompanied by unworldly sounds and voices, and these ghastly figures of wrath singing, shouting and celebrating with chants of death! death! death! and the sounds of shrieks, animations of the traveler, depicted as being trodden upon and being skinned alive with the traditional thunderbolt handle fillet knives, all appearing as completely real in living color and dimension. These visions during the Bardo passages are so terrifying that the one experiencing them fades away or faints, only to awaken again to other but similar visions, until their time has passed, and the appearence of the benevolant dieties begin to appear. Compare this to phrases from hexagram 51, shock comes bringing fear and trembling - oh oh! Laughing words, ha! ha! Fear Not. Nothing is happening.

"This movement is so violent that it arouses terror. It is symbolized by thunder, which bursts forth from the earth and by its shock causes fear and trembling." "The shock terrifies for a hundred miles,
And he does not let fall the sacrificial spoon and chalice.The shock that comes from the manifestation of God within the depths of the earth makes man afraid, but this fear of God is good, for joy and merriment can follow upon it. When a man has learned within his heart what fear and trembling mean, he is safeguarded against any terror produced by outside influences. Let the thunder roll and spread terror a hundred miles around: he remains so composed and reverent in spirit that the sacrificial rite is not interrupted. This is the spirit that must animate leaders and rulers of men-a profound inner seriousness from which all terrors glance off harmlessly."

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Is this not the same mythical and psychological idea as "Fear not. Nothing is happening?" And this profound seriousness and tranquility is depicted in the image of Avalokiteshvara , whose female counterpart is Kuan Yin - hence the image of the moon and water (though this particular image appears to incorporate both male and female deities in one), who is the Bodhisattva of infinite compassion to all sentient beings, who has forsaken Nirvana and release from this world, this dimension of time and space, of life and death, and who is believed by Tibetan Buddhists to be the incarnate Dalai Lama.

Thanks for opening this thread. It was the interactions with you that open the door to the world of myths and other religious. Forever grateful for that .:bows:

This is a short response and will focus only to one thing.

I agree with the perils and the slippery slop but also with the practical use of those myths. The scientist I admire have a common characteristics. They go beyond their own subject and search to other sciences/fields to see how they perceive similar things. The biographer of one of them mentioned somewhere that the specific scientist had a gift to attract other big minds. Now, that scientist had write a kind of biography of Darwin and mention a distinction between academics and explores.

Its a cliche story, but nevertheless always alive . The Blind men and the Elephant. I'm posting a contemporary depiction because it has its own value



I like all that "short story" of the story :
And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong.

I think we are all like those "blind" men trying to figure out what that beast call Elephant is Or better , not to offend anyone , will just speak for myself ." I'm blind" .Imo, blindness its not only a limitation but an opportunity, hence the smile on those faces in the pic.

Yes. People always ask, what is heaven like? What is hell like? Is there a purgatory? For that matter the same applies to the question, what is life like? It is unique for every individual because each will perceive them each differently. But for most everyone, each has it's own wrathful and benevolent dynamics and energy, and they are not always apparently clear and easy to distinguish, especially at the moment one experiences them.

I'm on a new blood pressure medication. One of the side effects is disturbing and crazy dreams, and they seem to go on all night, and during day naps too. (Another side effect is fatigue). When I ask about this, I receive 17 consistently. When I ask about refusing to take the medication I most often receive 44 and/or 34. But I've noticed that gradually the dynamics of these dreams are changing, in a Bardo like way, and increasingly but gradually the disturbing dreams are becoming benevolent in nature.

Two nights ago I dreamt I was helping someone in need, in some way. The beings in the dream were youthful and innocent, but one needed help. After I helped him (or her), unexpectedly one of these beings came and gave me a soft kiss of my cheek for helping the one. It was a shock to me, and I couldn't tell if they were a male or female, as though they were both. I awoke and laid there contemplating the dream awhile. It was in no way a sexual kiss, and I concluded that it was Avalokiteshvara, who has been a patron deity to me since my early twenties. However, his/her appearance to me was unlike what I would have expected, neither a trunk nor tail, nor leg nor belly, but as as a pure child, full of love. I was filled with joy and peace.

Myths can indeed be enormously practical.

awww, lovely dream !!! If everything in our dreams are parts of ourselves, that dream becomes lovelier !!

I particularly like this statue because of its simplicity and the way she gazes down.

I might emphasize, that it is one thing to view these figures in two dimensional art forms, and quite another to see them in 'living color' and dimension in the Bardo world, experienced as completely alive and breathtaking realism, accompanied by unworldly sounds and voices, and these ghastly figures of wrath singing, shouting and celebrating with chants of death! death! death!

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yeah, was thinking of the people paint them because I had to do something similar - paint that terror . You put masks on those emotions in order to unmask them. they act as a vehicle to go down there, the descend to hell so you can emerge again, ascend . So, when I think of BoD and bardo, I see it as been relevant to us while we are alive too. Those moments that are scary and feel like dying- the moment you don't know if you are going to make it.

Its those times that its a very lonely journey and you know you are on your own, but myths or stories appear in one way or another and although you are alone actually you are not.

Life is a Bardo. The same energies exist in our world, and to paint them, or to create art of any kind, to speak, to yell, to sing, to be silent: each is the same energy manifesting in a different form. In the realm of mythology this same energy breaks down into various forms and stories, some personal (folk myth), some universal (archetypal myth).

While horseback riding this morning, Bob said to me, your grandmother (in the form of a crow) has been hanging around the stables lately - I obviously shared with him the mythology of my granny. I said, no, she's hanging around me, as she always does. Both Bob and his wife, Shirley, laughed.

It's like the argument Joe C. had with the radio interviewer, who insisted that myth is a lie, while Joe maintained, myth is a metaphor. Finally Joe asked the interviewer to give him an example of a metaphor. After stumbling around awhile, with only a minute of air time left in the show, the interviewer finally answered, "John runs like a deer." "No!" Joe said. The metaphor would be "John IS a deer." "That is a lie!" the announcer said. "That is a metaphor!" Joe responded, as the show ended.

So, because a myth is a metaphor does not mean it's a lie. My grandmother HAS been hanging around the stables lately. So, no, we are not alone.

hahaha , I remember that !! I think he made a comment about this guy that he had an attitude and made clear that he had study law or something like that .

Isn't it beautiful that a lie brings out a truth in such an wonder-full way ? How many words one could need to describe how Jon runs- a lot I guess, but one "deer" is enough - if you have seen a deer . A lie - Maya and her double nature.

Speaking about art, somewhere he spoke of a thought his wife share with him . She said " the way of a mystic and the way of an artist are relates with the exception that the mystic doesn't have a craft" . In the same lecture he talked about improper and proper art. Proper art its the one brings us in a state of aesthetic arrest. its static it arrests the mind You stay still because of the awe - Zeus thunderclaps

anemos said:

How many words one could need to describe how Jon runs- a lot I guess, but one "deer" is enough - if you have seen a deer .

Proper art its the one brings us in a state of aesthetic arrest. its static it arrests the mind You stay still because of the awe - Zeus thunderclaps

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Zeus thunderclaps - aesthetic arrest - awe. Myth, metaphor, art.

His wife, once his student, became a world famous artist of dance herself. There's a point where the art no longer merely illustrates the story but becomes the story.Yes, lots of ways to describe the story, but proper art becomes the story. This is an example of archetypal myth, even during the expression of a folk myth, whether it is early Greek theater, indigenous dance ritual, or even proper story telling. There's no explanation required if one identifies with the subject - if you have seen a deer.

Interpreting a Yijing reading can also be this way. One can explain a trigram, say, water. Or one can be water, or wind or fire - if one knows water, wind or fire. If you have to explain them, you are relying on an indirect source, a translation and indirect interpretation, and the myth and metaphor are lost. In your words, it does not arrest the mind in direct experience with the subject.

sooo said:

Interpreting a Yijing reading can also be this way. One can explain a trigram, say, water. Or one can be water, or wind or fire - if one knows water, wind or fire. If you have to explain them, you are relying on an indirect source, a translation and indirect interpretation, and the myth and metaphor are lost. In your words, it does not arrest the mind in direct experience with the subject.

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Yes, I do agree. It brought you to a still point .

As for Yi , we talk about symbols-trigrams what we all have common experience. I mean I don't believe one would see Mountain and associate it with flow Its that trait they have that surpasses cognition and penetrates us, reach other levels of our minds and then we understand.

Was looking up for symbols- in the broader meaning and found this :




Shatkona, "six-pointed star," is two interlocking triangles; the upper stands for Siva, 'purusha' (male energy) and fire, the lower for Shakti, 'prakriti' (female power) and water. Their union gives birth to Sanatkumara, whose sacred number is six.

Maybe I commit the mistake of mixing different traditions but I can feel Water and Fire trigrams, and the union or not brings in mind 63 & 64. It would be interesting if someone knew and could inform us which tradition /civilization has not a similar symbolism

the more we approach the building blocks of a construct, the better we understand the construct, imo. We understand the parts and that little " think" that make the whole greater than its parts. That's the mystery

Using the power of deities

Interesting thread.

I'm probably more Hindu than anything else, tho raised in Irish/Roman Catholic tradition. Many decades ago, I was dragged kicking and screaming to see a "Guru." Who would want to do that? But he opened my heart, changed my life.

My favorite Hindu diety is Durga, the fearsome goddess who rides on a lion. She carries an assortment of weapons, including a bow and arrow, a sword, a thunderbolt. A spinning, sharp-edged Sudharshana Chakra encircles one of her arms -- a Ninja-looking weapon. (more on that chakra below). Durga's weapons have various purposes, and many different interpretations. She uses her weapons to conquer various evils, often those inside our own minds.

Story: I was visiting a friend who had 80 acres deep in the Oregon woods. A fire road went uphill behind the house for a mile. I was nearing the top of that road on a walk with two very small dogs. Suddenly they raced downhill toward the house, and I could feel their fear. I started chanting my Durga mantra. A feeling of peace came over me, like a physical tent. I continued walking home.

In the middle of the night, I woke up in terror, the dogs were barking their heads off. In the morning, we discovered the body of a deer in the front yard, half-eaten by a cougar. The deer was much larger and faster than I.

More? OK. A friend wrote very good book called Sanskrit Mantras. In his pre-publication ms., I found a Sudharshana Chakra mantra that appealed to me. I recited it several times each morning for six weeks, as prescribed. During that time, I went to my daughter's birthday party, lots of people at her place right on a river. The weather was threatening and getting worse. I was flipping burgers on the front porch, when we saw a tornado headed up the river toward us. I kept flipping burgers.

"Aren't you afraid?" someone asked. "No, I did my mantra this morning." AT that very moment, the tornado veered at a right angle, as if turning a corner, and went across the river. My house was across the river.

When I got home, I discovered that the tornado had struck the house next to mine, skipped over my house, and destroyed three houses on the other side. On it's way over my house, it had pried up a small corner of my garage roof , leaving me a little calling card.

How about those Hindus? The spinning tornado was no match for the spinning Sudharshana Chakra.

If I remember to keep the Hindu pantheon around me it creates a no-fear zone.

anemos said:

Yes, I do agree. It brought you to a still point .

As for Yi , we talk about symbols-trigrams what we all have common experience. I mean I don't believe one would see Mountain and associate it with flow Its that trait they have that surpasses cognition and penetrates us, reach other levels of our minds and then we understand.

Was looking up for symbols- in the broader meaning and found this :

Shatkona, "six-pointed star," is two interlocking triangles; the upper stands for Siva, 'purusha' (male energy) and fire, the lower for Shakti, 'prakriti' (female power) and water. Their union gives birth to Sanatkumara, whose sacred number is six.

Maybe I commit the mistake of mixing different traditions but I can feel Water and Fire trigrams, and the union or not brings in mind 63 & 64. It would be interesting if someone knew and could inform us which tradition /civilization has not a similar symbolism

the more we approach the building blocks of a construct, the better we understand the construct, imo. We understand the parts and that little " think" that make the whole greater than its parts. That's the mystery

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It can be a bit confusing but it need not be. Different systems associate different meanings and attributes to the same images, changing the symbolism of the object, but the whole of it comes out saying the same fundamental things. For instance, in Yijing associative symbolism, water is male and fire is female, yet fire and water together still represent opposites, and the combined dynamics wind up being the same.

I personally don't think cognition is ever out of the equation however, though greater emphasis may be placed on the intuitive than on the rational, or vice verse. In these deity paintings and myths, each being has a specific name, character and function in the story, yet even if they are freely interpreted by someone knowing nothing of their traditional and original roles, they can still derive and construct a meaningful mythology from them. They, in effect, become part of ones individual folk myth. This may give the scholar a headache, but Freud would have no problem with it.

poised said:

In the middle of the night, I woke up in terror, the dogs were barking their heads off. In the morning, we discovered the body of a deer in the front yard, half-eaten by a cougar. The deer was much larger and faster than I.

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And no doubt, tastier and more filling, also a more traditional game and meal for a hungry cougar. Also less likely to send a party of hunters out the following morning to kill the 'man eating' lion. In such a case, I'd give thanks to the deer, or to a deity to provide the deer. To me, the deer would be the deity. I think that would be more the mythology of the indigenous people of that territory. However, who is to say that Durga didn't transform herself into that deer to fulfill her role to which your faith had empowered her? And likewise for the tornado which spared your dwelling. If there's any truth to faith moving mountains, it can certainly move a tornado or move a deer, even if there are natural explanations for those things. One can never leave nature out of the equation of magic.

poised said:

If I remember to keep the Hindu pantheon around me it creates a no-fear zone.

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yeah, the still point ....
not to mention that they make a big army

sooo said:

I personally don't think cognition is ever out of the equation however, though greater emphasis may be placed on the intuitive than on the rational, or vice verse. .

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Yup. the thinking or sense-making process is involved either as in the present or as residues from the past. Intuition can be clear and flawless but imo can be also wrong Maybe myth which are "lies" somehow reduce the tendency to criticize and reason so they give a kind of allowance, to jump into the myth and become a participant in a non-critical way. its another kind of awareness more primitive one. We "think" with that part of brain that knows no language - the translation comes later and springs from the experience.