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Difference between revisions of "Are the gods of Tantric Buddhism real or just facon de parler?"

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(Created page with " First of all there is no such thing as Tantric Buddhism as the word Tantric is a totally Hindu word and the correct appellation for what you’re c...")
 
 
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First of all there is no such thing as [[Tantric Buddhism]] as the [[word]] [[Tantric]] is a totally [[Hindu]] [[word]] and the correct appellation for what you’re calling [[Tantric]] is [[Vajrayana]] . You see , [[Hindu]] [[Sanskrit]] words have dominated the [[Indian]] subcontinent after [[Buddhism]] began collapsing in the [[Indian]] subcontinent after the 12–13 th century . In [[Hindu]] culture/mileu [[Tantra]] is the practice , in [[Vajrayana]] [[Tantra]] is the text [[books]] and
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First of all, there is no such thing as [[Tantric Buddhism]] as the [[word]] [[Tantric]] is a totally [[Hindu]] [[word]] and the correct appellation for what you’re calling [[Tantric]] is [[Vajrayana]]. You see , [[Hindu]] [[Sanskrit]] words have dominated the [[Indian]]  
  
[[Tantrayana]] or [[mantrayana]] is the practice,the [[path]], never [[Tantra]]. So this appellation [[Tantrik]] [[Buddhism]] is a misnomer .But of course ,you’re not at fault because [[Vajrayana]] in it’s [[Sanskrit]] [[form]] , the original , [[exists]] only in [[Nepal]] as an extreme minority ,while it [[exists]] in full
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subcontinent after [[Buddhism]] began collapsing in the [[Indian]] subcontinent after the 12–13 th century . In [[Hindu]] culture/mileu [[Tantra]] is the practice , in [[Vajrayana]] [[Tantra]] is the text [[books]] and
  
[[form]] only [[in Tibet]] /[[Mongolia]] /[[China]] as [[Chen]] yen /[[Japan]] as [[Shingonshu]] /{{Wiki|Russian}} [[Buriyat]] /Kalmykhia /[[Bhutan]] and The {{Wiki|nepali}} and [[Indian]] Cis [[Himalayan]] regions in their [[own]] NON-SANSKRITIC [[languages]]. Even the [[practitioner]] of [[Vajrayana]] is not called [[Tantric]] ( as in [[Hinduism]] ) which
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[[Tantrayana]] or [[mantrayana]] is the practice,the [[path]], never [[Tantra]]. So this appellation [[Tantrik]] [[Buddhism]] is a misnomer.But of course ,you’re not at fault because [[Vajrayana]] in it’s [[Sanskrit]] [[form]] , the original , [[exists]] only in [[Nepal]] as an extreme minority ,while it [[exists]] in full
  
would be Gyupa in [[Tibetan]]. They are called [[Ngakpa]] which is the exact [[Sanskrit]] translation of[[ Mantrin]]/[[Mantradhara]] . And to be sure that is the [[word]] used in extant [[Sanskrit]] texts like the [[Hevajra Tantra]] and both Asaghosha’s ( 2nd AD ) and [[Advaya]] [[Vajra’s]] ( 11th AD ) texts on SAmayas too . [[Vajrayana]] is also called Mantrayana,Tantrayana , or Upayayana.Sahajayana and Guhyayana .
 
  
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[[form]] only [[in Tibet]] /[[Mongolia]] /[[China]] as [[Chen yen]] /[[Japan]] as [[Shingonshu]] /{{Wiki|Russian}} [[Buriyat]] /Kalmykhia /[[Bhutan]] and The {{Wiki|nepali}} and [[Indian]] [[Cis]] [[Himalayan]] regions in their [[own]] NON-SANSKRITIC [[languages]]. Even the [[practitioner]] of [[Vajrayana]] is not called [[Tantric]] ( as in [[Hinduism]] ) which
  
Now with that in the background, I shall answer your question . First of all you used the [[word]] [[gods]] which again is inaccurate here . I presume you mean [[Devas]] by [[gods]] so I’ll answer them accordingly. There are various groups of [[beings]] in [[Vajrayana]] who you have rolled up into one [[name]] Deva/gods , which is inaccurate as not all of them are DEVAS .
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would [[be Gyupa]] in [[Tibetan]]. They are called [[Ngakpa]] which is the exact [[Sanskrit]] translation of [[Mantrin]]/[[Mantradhara]] . And to be sure that is the [[word]] used in extant [[Sanskrit]] texts like the [[Hevajra Tantra]] and both [[Asvaghosha’s]] ( 2nd AD ) and [[Advaya Vajra’s]] ( 11th AD ) texts on [[Samayas]] too. [[Vajrayana]] is also called [[Mantrayana]],[[Tantrayana]] , or [[Upayayana]].[[Sahajayana]] and [[Guhyayana]] .
  
Mahabodhisatvas like [[Manjusri]] , Avalokiteshwar ,[[Tara]], [[Vajrapani]] are not [[Devas]] [[per se]] but Mahabodhisatvas who have reached that high stage ( tenth [[Bhumi]] ) through [[kalpas]] of practice and are almost [[Samyag]] [[Sambuddhas]] .
 
  
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Now with that in the background, I shall answer your question. First of all, you used the [[word]] [[gods]] which again is inaccurate here . I presume you mean [[Devas]] by [[gods]] so I’ll answer them accordingly. There are various groups of [[beings]] in [[Vajrayana]] who you have rolled up into one [[name]] [[Deva]]/[[gods]], which is inaccurate as not all of them are [[DEVAS]].
  
Then there are a series of what are called [[Yidam]] and the actual [[Sanskrit]] [[word]] is Ishta [[Devas]] but who are not [[Devas]] like the [[Hindu gods]] but more [[archetypal]] {{Wiki|representations}} of the [[mind]] itself . These are called [[Devas]] but are not what you mean by [[Devas]] .And Ista [[Deva]] is not some being like [[Ram]], [[Krishna]] but the [[mind]] itself . The [[Tibetan]] [[word]] is an exact translation of what was meant by Ishta [[Deva]] or Ishtam in [[Vajrayana]]  
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[[Mahabodhisatvas]] like [[Manjusri]] , [[Avalokiteshwara]] ,[[Tara]], [[Vajrapani]] are not [[Devas]] [[per se]] but [[Mahabodhisatvas]] who have reached that high stage ( [[tenth Bhumi]] ) through [[kalpas]] of practice and are almost [[Samyag Sambuddhas]] .
  
as opposed to Hunduism as a whole . Yid is [[mind]] and [[Dam]] is [[Samaya]] /Commitment . So it means [[Chitta]] [[Samaya]] or Commitment of the [[mind]] . In [[Sanskrit]] Ishta means close and what could be closer than the [[mind]] ? And that’s the connotation meant here with the [[word]] Ishtam/Ishta [[Deva]] sometimes .These are [[meditative]] [[mandalas]] used in the [[Samatha]] - [[Vipashyana]] of [[Vajrayana]]
 
  
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Then there are a series of what are called [[Yidam]] and the actual [[Sanskrit]] [[word]] is Ishta [[Devas]] but who are not [[Devas]] like the [[Hindu gods]] but more [[archetypal]] {{Wiki|representations}} of the [[mind]] itself . These are called [[Devas]] but are not what you mean by [[Devas]].And [[Ista Deva]] is not some being like [[Ram]], [[Krishna]] but the [[mind]] itself . The [[Tibetan]] [[word]] is an exact translation of what was meant by Ishta [[Deva]] or [[Ishtam]] in [[Vajrayana]]
  
Then there is a group within [[Vajrayana]] of what YOU meant by Devas/gods . They are various [[Devas]] who had taken [[refuge]] with the [[Buddha]] himself ,of which even the [[Theravadin]] [[Tripitaka]] mentions over hundred thousands , some of whom had even reached the first [[stages of enlightenment]]  
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as opposed to [[Hunduism]] as a whole. [[Yid]] is [[mind]] and [[Dam]] is [[Samaya]] /[[Commitment]] . So it means [[Chitta Samaya]] or [[Commitment of the mind]]. In [[Sanskrit]] [[Ishta]] means [[close]] and what could be closer than the [[mind]]? And that’s the connotation meant here with the [[word]] [[Ishtam]]/[[Ishta Deva]] sometimes.These are [[meditative]] [[mandalas]] used in the [[Samatha]] - [[Vipashyana]] of [[Vajrayana]]
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Then there is a group within [[Vajrayana]] of what YOU meant by [[Devas]]/[[gods]]. They are various [[Devas]] who had taken [[refuge]] with the [[Buddha]] himself, of which even the [[Theravadin]] [[Tripitaka]] mentions over a hundred thousand, some of whom had even reached the first [[stages of enlightenment]]  
  
 
called Srotapanna even when the [[Buddha]] was alive . And again many more who came to challenge the [[Buddhist]] [[Mahasiddhas]] Like [[Virupada]] / [[Sarahapada]] /[[Krishnacharya]] et al and eventually took [[refuge]] in the Triple gem/Tri [[Ratna]] .  
 
called Srotapanna even when the [[Buddha]] was alive . And again many more who came to challenge the [[Buddhist]] [[Mahasiddhas]] Like [[Virupada]] / [[Sarahapada]] /[[Krishnacharya]] et al and eventually took [[refuge]] in the Triple gem/Tri [[Ratna]] .  
  
Those from the [[Indian]] subcontinent have the same names as some [[Hindu gods]] as they were [[local gods]] of the region where the [[Buddha]] was . But when [[Buddhism]] spread to [[Tibet]] ,[[China]] et al then the same thing happened there and thus we have [[Tibetan]] etc [[Devas]] who took [[refuge]] . Now these  
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Those from the [[Indian]] subcontinent have the same names as some [[Hindu gods]] as they were [[local gods]] of the region where the [[Buddha]] was. But when [[Buddhism]] spread to [[Tibet]],[[China]] et al then the same thing happened there and thus we have [[Tibetan]] etc [[Devas]] who took [[refuge]]. Now these  
  
are called Dharmapalas/Protectors of the [[Dharma]] and even the [[Pali]] ,[[Theravadin]] [[Anguttara Nikaya]] at two places ,4th Nipat and again in the 5th Nipat ,[[Nivarana]] Vaggo , [[Licchavi]] [[Kumara]] [[Sutta]] , The [[Buddha]] himself says that these [[Devas]] should be [[offered]] [[offerings]] etc . In the [[Vajrayana tradition]] these are called [[Dharmapalas]] /[[Protector]] or Guardians of the [[Dharma]] .
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are called Dharmapalas/Protectors of the [[Dharma]] and even the [[Pali]] ,[[Theravadin]] [[Anguttara Nikaya]] at two places ,4th Nipat and again in the 5th Nipat ,[[Nivarana Vaggo]] , [[Licchavi Kumara Sutta]] , The [[Buddha]] himself says that these [[Devas]] should be [[offered]] [[offerings]] etc . In the [[Vajrayana tradition]] these are called [[Dharmapalas]] /[[Protector]] or [[Guardians of the Dharma]]  
  
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And last but not least are the [[Gurus]] like [[Guru Padmasambhava]] a [[spiritually]] very advanced [[Person]] who are also worshipped like [[Devas]] but they are not [[Devas]]. And again there are many such [[Gurus]] since the last 2500 years like [[Virupada]], [[Sarahapada]] , et al.
  
And last but not least are the [[Gurus]] like [[Guru Padmasambhava]] a [[spiritually]] very advanced [[Person]] who are also worshipped like [[Devas]] but they are not [[Devas]] . And again there are many such [[Gurus]] since the last 2500 years like [[Virupada]] , [[Sarahapada]] , et al .
 
  
  
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Answer requested by Gary Smith
  
Answer requested by Gary Smith
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{{R}}
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[[Category:Buddhist Terms]]
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[[Category:Deities]]
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[[Category:Tibetan Buddhism]]

Latest revision as of 08:01, 10 March 2024





First of all, there is no such thing as Tantric Buddhism as the word Tantric is a totally Hindu word and the correct appellation for what you’re calling Tantric is Vajrayana. You see , Hindu Sanskrit words have dominated the Indian

subcontinent after Buddhism began collapsing in the Indian subcontinent after the 12–13 th century . In Hindu culture/mileu Tantra is the practice , in Vajrayana Tantra is the text books and

Tantrayana or mantrayana is the practice,the path, never Tantra. So this appellation Tantrik Buddhism is a misnomer.But of course ,you’re not at fault because Vajrayana in it’s Sanskrit form , the original , exists only in Nepal as an extreme minority ,while it exists in full


form only in Tibet /Mongolia /China as Chen yen /Japan as Shingonshu /Russian Buriyat /Kalmykhia /Bhutan and The nepali and Indian Cis Himalayan regions in their own NON-SANSKRITIC languages. Even the practitioner of Vajrayana is not called Tantric ( as in Hinduism ) which

would be Gyupa in Tibetan. They are called Ngakpa which is the exact Sanskrit translation of Mantrin/Mantradhara . And to be sure that is the word used in extant Sanskrit texts like the Hevajra Tantra and both Asvaghosha’s ( 2nd AD ) and Advaya Vajra’s ( 11th AD ) texts on Samayas too. Vajrayana is also called Mantrayana,Tantrayana , or Upayayana.Sahajayana and Guhyayana .


Now with that in the background, I shall answer your question. First of all, you used the word gods which again is inaccurate here . I presume you mean Devas by gods so I’ll answer them accordingly. There are various groups of beings in Vajrayana who you have rolled up into one name Deva/gods, which is inaccurate as not all of them are DEVAS.

Mahabodhisatvas like Manjusri , Avalokiteshwara ,Tara, Vajrapani are not Devas per se but Mahabodhisatvas who have reached that high stage ( tenth Bhumi ) through kalpas of practice and are almost Samyag Sambuddhas .


Then there are a series of what are called Yidam and the actual Sanskrit word is Ishta Devas but who are not Devas like the Hindu gods but more archetypal representations of the mind itself . These are called Devas but are not what you mean by Devas.And Ista Deva is not some being like Ram, Krishna but the mind itself . The Tibetan word is an exact translation of what was meant by Ishta Deva or Ishtam in Vajrayana

as opposed to Hunduism as a whole. Yid is mind and Dam is Samaya /Commitment . So it means Chitta Samaya or Commitment of the mind. In Sanskrit Ishta means close and what could be closer than the mind? And that’s the connotation meant here with the word Ishtam/Ishta Deva sometimes.These are meditative mandalas used in the Samatha - Vipashyana of Vajrayana


Then there is a group within Vajrayana of what YOU meant by Devas/gods. They are various Devas who had taken refuge with the Buddha himself, of which even the Theravadin Tripitaka mentions over a hundred thousand, some of whom had even reached the first stages of enlightenment

called Srotapanna even when the Buddha was alive . And again many more who came to challenge the Buddhist Mahasiddhas Like Virupada / Sarahapada /Krishnacharya et al and eventually took refuge in the Triple gem/Tri Ratna .

Those from the Indian subcontinent have the same names as some Hindu gods as they were local gods of the region where the Buddha was. But when Buddhism spread to Tibet,China et al then the same thing happened there and thus we have Tibetan etc Devas who took refuge. Now these

are called Dharmapalas/Protectors of the Dharma and even the Pali ,Theravadin Anguttara Nikaya at two places ,4th Nipat and again in the 5th Nipat ,Nivarana Vaggo , Licchavi Kumara Sutta , The Buddha himself says that these Devas should be offered offerings etc . In the Vajrayana tradition these are called Dharmapalas /Protector or Guardians of the Dharma

And last but not least are the Gurus like Guru Padmasambhava a spiritually very advanced Person who are also worshipped like Devas but they are not Devas. And again there are many such Gurus since the last 2500 years like Virupada, Sarahapada , et al.


Answer requested by Gary Smith


Source